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MSWS

[TTT] Recent Update Feedback

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Hello everyone, this post will be covering and providing some feedback that I have, and that I've heard from other players. Just to quickly recap, DEFY has drastically changed its Punishment System, ingame items, karma system, and other miscellaneous aspects of the TTT server. When responding to this thread please remember to be respectful, polite, and to provide constructive criticism. This means you are allowed to criticize, however you should offer solutions to remedy the problem. If you would like to add / modify something to my original post feel free to propose it and I may edit my post. 

 

 

Punishment / Rule System

Changes: Most rule offenses result in first a warning and then a ban. 

Feedback: This system is unforgiving and escalates too quickly.

Fixes: Gradually increase the punishments instead of immediately going to a ban after a warning.

Example for mic spam: 1. Warning + Mute (30 Minutes) 2. Warning + Mute (1 hour) 3. Ban

Note that the warning is only on the second offense in order to keep track of how many offenses have occured.

 

Karma System

Changes: Players lose (and only lose) karma based on how many lines of BAD ACTION they have committed within the logs.

Feedback: This change, combined with the modifications of how much karma you gain/lose for killing the wrong player, is extremely unforgiving and forces players to be extremely careful. In addition, this new system has caused exploiting of karma to test players, makes players lose karma for damaging themselves, causes molotovs to be karma killers, and makes shotguns a ban wish if you're an innocent.

Fixes: I personally think the karma system was okay the way it used to be. Either revert back to that system, or keep the new values but remove the per line system.

 

Shop System

Changes: Added many new items.

Feedback: The community in general greatly appreciates the new additions. They bring a new spin and allow for more exciting gameplay. There are however issues with the Traitor Shop that have been agreed upon. 

 

The Traitor Shop needs to be less OP. Currently, traitors have access to 3 missiles per round. The cheapest being under 50 (at least with VIP, unsure what the original cost was). Due to in-game credits starting at 50, that means a traitor on their first round is able to get a missile. The missiles are nearly the equivalent of a jihad, is cheaper, doesn't cause you to die, is much more versatile, activates immediately, and doesn't take 60 seconds to activate. All missiles are invulnerable and cannot be destroyed. The missiles are unbalanced even for TTT and a big reason for making this post.

 

Additionally, the controlling missile is extremely OP for being only 60-ish credits. It has no range, time, or health limit. 

 

Fixes: One or more of the following:

A. Limit missile purchases to one per round.

B. Increase missile prices.

C. Decrease missile damage radius or speed.

D. Allow missiles to be shot/destroyed.

E. Add a range/time/health limit to the missiles.

D. Add a delay when purchasing missiles (similar to the Jihad).

E. Make missiles slower and make a sound when flying.

 

The Detective Shop should be more special, and better explained. There have already been suggestions for new items for the detective. In addition, the revolver that the detective can purchase is poorly explained. There is no explanation in the shop and the name of it does not describe it at all.

 

The Innocent Shop is fine as is.

 

All shops should be given nightvision, it was removed in the new update and there is no reason to not add it back.

 

Prop System

Changes: Made it so props can be frozen while holding them with left-click.

Feedback: Unknown, I personally do not like this change, however I do know several community members that are not bothered or like the new system.

Edited by MSWS
  • Upvote 2

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26 minutes ago, MSWS said:

Fixes: Gradually increase the punishments instead of immediately going to a ban after a warning.

Example for mic spam: 1. Warning + Mute (30 Minutes) 2. Warning + Mute (1 hour) 3. Ban

Note that the warning is only on the second offense in order to keep track of how many offenses have occured.

 

I agree with this one for most of its applications. For some things such as prop pushing/mic spam (if unintentional) I think there should first be a verbal warning (literally just telling them the rule) so that they don't have a record right off the bat for a genuine mistake. 

 

26 minutes ago, MSWS said:

Fixes: I personally think the karma system was okay the way it used to be. Either revert back to that system, or keep the new values but remove the per line system.

 

Adding onto this, I think we should definitely revert to the previous system until a better option comes to mind (possibly on other responses to this thread). I have experienced the bad part of this as an RDM fest made it look like two people were Ts resulting in me killing them both and finding out they were innocent. Since I had used an MP7 I ended up going from 100 karma to 72 karma because of a misunderstanding. It took me way too long to get back to 100 karma because the karma you gain was also decreased. I think if the per-line-reduction system is going to stay, at least bump karma gained per kill back to what it was before the update. 

 

26 minutes ago, MSWS said:

All missiles are invulnerable and cannot be destroyed. The missiles are unbalanced even for TTT and a big reason for making this post.

 

I feel as if giving the missiles health would be a lot of work and might just make them too weak. It'd kind of be like a hurt station but everyone would see it and shoot it down instantly. I feel as if a better alternative would be to flat out remove the following missile because it's kinda overpowered (you can literally throw it straight up in the air and still get kills) and, as you said, set a timer or distance cap for the controlling missile. I don't know if the regular missile should be changed though, honestly. It's pretty basic and hard to use right anyway since it's so slow and easy to dodge. 

 

 

Overall, this is a very well thought out post and props to you for making it. 👍

Edited by Fsjal

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Yeah I threw a Molotov at myself for fun and lost 17 karma rip. Also I’m not such a fan on the prop update either, yes it is cool but I always find props in doorways and other areas that slowdown a players action.

Edited by Mike

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Yeah, per line karma also adds the exploit of shooting someone, checking karma, and then killing someone if you didn’t lose karma, or at the very least sussing them

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7 hours ago, Fsjal said:

For some things such as prop pushing/mic spam (if unintentional) I think there should first be a verbal warning (literally just telling them the rule) so that they don't have a record right off the bat for a genuine mistake. 

 

While I do understand your logic, I disagree. The reasoning for even having a warning before escalating immediately before a ban is to ensure the player knows the rules. If they break the rule again accidentally or not they still broke a rule that they knew (or should have known) about. It's standard to still have a punishment and a warning. Additionally, how would you want admins to keep track of who has been verbally warned? Warnings solve this issue by allowing admins to lookup their previous history.

 

Admins are given a fair amount of discretion. I personally give out numerous verbal warnings to players before having to deal out paper punishments. If I believe it was a genuine mistake and will not happen again, chances are I'll let it go. But if it's a rule that is obvious or people would know about through common sense, then I likely will punish them. Nevertheless, the punishment system is still very strict, and does not give the staff team a lot of options / discretion.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nydekore said:

Yeah, per line karma also adds the exploit of shooting someone, checking karma, and then killing someone if you didn’t lose karma, or at the very least sussing them

 

This is indeed mentioned within the original post. It is and can be a big problem that may affect gameplay. I have talked to Mark about it and he does plan on removing this system, or removing the ability to check your current karma with /karma. Thank you for agreeing and supporting the feedback.

 

Thank you everyone for the feedback, I apparently cannot edit my post anymore so there goes that option. It does look, however, that so far most people agree with the ideas within the first post. 

Edited by MSWS

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Punishment system is really harsh. And ItzGray got banned. So something wrong is here.

  • Haha 1

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Punishment System

The people who are gonna complain are the ones breaking the rules to begin with. Lets take for example spam. Do you see me spamming? Do you see other good players spamming? In most cases of spam or any rule really most people realize they should not be doing it. Many rules you would think is common sense that you should not be breaking them even if you did not know they exist. However I know many lack common sense or they just want to bend the rules. However the consequences of bending even the little rules is that it results in admins needing to take action instead of just joining the server and enjoying the game or taking care of more important issues. Why don't we just let small things slide? Well it leads to bigger problems and the reality is rules should not be broken in the first place. Like I already stated even if you don't read the rules many things are common sense, granted if you have never played TTT you should probably read the rules as they do serve as a guide to how the game functions.

 

Now the reason the punishments were updated to a simple structure of 1. Warn + light offence  2. Ban for most rules is for simplicity. I don't see a reason to issue more than one warning. Everyone playing was forced to read the rules and if they read them they would avoid breaking a rule in the first place. If they didn't well they are in luck as they get a warning + light offence on the first offence. At this point they should not be breaking that rule again. If they do well it simply results in a ban on the second offence. Now if we take spam for example and add an extra warning + 1 hour mute in my opinion its ineffective as what is most likely to occur is the player will disconnect and join back later when they are unmuted. So this results in an extra chance for no reason really.

 

Now when it comes to spamming binds or having an offensive bind I have heard the excuse time and time again "sorry it was a bind" Remove it the first time don't keep using excuses like "I forgot to unbind it"

 

1 hour ago, Pepe said:

Punishment system is really harsh. And ItzGray got banned. So something wrong is here.

 

Really? http://bans.defyclan.com/index.php?p=commslist&searchText= STEAM_1%3A1%3A422163494&Submit=Search

 

I know he is not the only one but this is exactly why we track punishments and ensure that repeat rule breakers get a bigger punishment on the second offence.

 

In conclusion with the new punishment update I want to keep players that follow the rules and weed out the players that are just here to break/bend the rules. I want players to realize its not worth breaking the rules on our servers. In the past when it came to mutes/gags it is clear that players took it as a joke. I know that when you do something for a while eventually you will slip up like ItzGray did. Keep in mind since the new punishment update we have reset all warnings so he already had a chance prior to the ban.

 

Karma System

It has already been tweaked in the dev server and the update will be applied later today. However what I will say in regards to karma is that it has been discussed in the past and we came to the conclusion that it needed to be changed. Now again this next update may not be the final change to karma but we will see. As far as the whole losing karma for damage it will be removed because it did introduce problems with many things however that means bad action kills will result in slightly more karma loss.

 

Shop System

The initial price of missiles and other items was set so players can get a feel of these items and we can see the impact. However I have again already updated some prices of items in the next update.

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 3

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To be fair, most of those were gags or just by console :( 4 were actual mutes, since 2 of them were lifted,  over the past 10 months I have been here.

 

Edited by ItzGray

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On 10/21/2019 at 12:44 PM, MSWS said:

I disagree.

 

On 10/21/2019 at 12:44 PM, MSWS said:

I personally give out numerous verbal warnings

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

 

 

On 10/21/2019 at 12:44 PM, MSWS said:

For some things such as prop pushing/mic spam (if unintentional) I think there should first be a verbal warning

=

On 10/21/2019 at 12:44 PM, MSWS said:

If I believe it was a genuine mistake and will not happen again, chances are I'll let it go. But if it's a rule that is obvious or people would know about through common sense, then I likely will punish them.

 

Edited by Fsjal

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15 minutes ago, Fsjal said:

 

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

 

 

=

 

The difference is in the admin's discretion. Forcing an admin to give out a verbal warning could be unfair in blatant situations.

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1 minute ago, MSWS said:

The difference is in the admin's discretion. Forcing an admin to give out a verbal warning could be unfair in blatant situations.

Compadre. In no way, shape, or form did I say admins would be forced to give verbal warnings. It was a suggestion to help avoid situations where admins go about routine punishments for borderline and unintentional offenses. I even said that it should be applied to cases where the offense is unintentional, not blatant. It's not that difficult if you finish reading what I wrote before thinking up your response. You clearly get it, though, since you said the same thing but disagreed for the sole purpose of disagreement.

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2 minutes ago, Fsjal said:

Compadre. In no way, shape, or form did I say admins would be forced to give verbal warnings. It was a suggestion to help avoid situations where admins go about routine punishments for borderline and unintentional offenses. I even said that it should be applied to cases where the offense is unintentional, not blatant. It's not that difficult if you finish reading what I wrote before thinking up your response. You clearly get it, though, since you said the same thing but disagreed for the sole purpose of disagreement.

 

You may have meant to say somethin else, but the thing you said was that. 

29 minutes ago, Fsjal said:
On 10/21/2019 at 10:44 AM, MSWS said:

For some things such as prop pushing/mic spam (if unintentional) I think there should first be a verbal warning

 

there should first be a verbal warning implies that this would force the admin to only give a verbal warning

 

 

Either way the only difference is a 1 round / 15 minute mute/gag, its not really that big of a punishment.

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