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donnie8

Waring System Needs Reform

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I am sorry for the mild forums post spam but I felt that this is a decently big problem. sorry for long post too

 

The warning system is meant to punish and repel people who come on Defy servers just to break rules intentionally and be a public nuisance. <------ The problem is not this, but the fact that the harsh warning system has banned people who are not known to break rules often. I think that this is due to the 1 warn, then ban and also the prolonged amount of time before a warn expiresA solution to this is to enforce only punishments and not warns to accidental breaking of rules, or extremely decrease the amount of time a warn takes to expire. I have hear that a warn lasts from around 3 to 6 months and I feel that this is not forgiving players who do regularly follow rules but slip up sometimes. Everybody makes mistakes but theoretically, if you make 2 mistakes in the time span of 6 months, you will be banned and my case that would be a perma ban. Maybe the warns should last for only a week to a month before they expire. 

 

An example of this accidental behavior is that I was playing on teen room or some map like that on TTT and trying to throw a smoke, I accidentally fired my shotgun because I did not scroll far enough. I was fine with the punishment because it was deserved but the warn wasn't. If I accidentally do that same thing again, I am outta here, gone. Some might say, just be more careful but my response to that is , "accidents happen" and it is inevitable that an imperfect player like me will recreate that same mistake within the next 3-6 months. 

 

Conclusion to my first point is that the warning system was meant to stop people who come on Defy servers just to troll or rule break but with its long expiration date and harsh instant second offence ban, it is hurting the common players more than the intentional rule breaker. 

 

The Solution to this would be to not enforce warnings to people who accidentally rule break and only enforce them to people who do not know the rules (because they did not read them) or to people who intentionally rule break to grief the server. the other Solution to this Problem is to extremely decrease the time length of the warning to maybe like 2 weeks long before expiration. I am a lot more fond of the first Solution because it fixes the Problem that the warning system is hurting common every day casual players instead of people who come on just to rule break. 

 

The second Problem with the system is that its rules and conditions are not clearly laid out for the Defy members and players to see. I checked the forums for a while to see if there are any ground rules for how the warns work but I found none. The bans are clearly explained and easily understood but to the average player, he or she will be confused and not fully know how the warnings work. 

 

The Solution to this problem is to have a section on the forums stating the conditions of the warnings, how long they last, when they will be issued, and which warnings correspond with each other. Example, does a spamming warning and a false kos warning get you banned or are those individual, does a door spam warning correspond with a mic/chat spam warning, does a trolling/harassment warning correspond with a spamming warning?

 

The third Problem is the lack of organization of informing players about their warns. Sure, it does tell you if you received a warning for something but you have no way of checking what warning you have without being on the server along with an admin and asking for information about your warns. 

 

An example of where this could be a problem is, I am banned right now and would like to see which warnings i have applied so I can know if i was properly banned. That is just a rare circumstance but more realistically, when I get back online, I want to be very careful that I do nothing wrong and if there is no admin on, I would not be able to see my warnings. If an admin is on, it would be a tedious task for the both of us and it would ion the end, take up some of my play time and take up soem of hte admins time that they could have been educating or enforcing rules. 

 

A Solution to this would be to add a source bans sort of thing but for warnings. The way you can check your bans and other peoples' bans is great in that it shows you who did what and you can recall to something you did. It is a clean system and by showing warnings, it will not impede any more anonymity than the bans panel has.

 

 

The fourth Problem is "who should receive warnings?". This is about whether or not admins should receive warnings. I have witnessed a couple of admins accidentally breaking rules and slaying themselves but not warning themselves. It is like a police officer paying a fine but not doing the time. (little rhyme there). This is annoying because an admin could accidentally rdm and slay them selves but I get warned for something as petty as accidentally t baiting which brings me half way to a ban, in my case, a perma ban. I have seen several (at least 3) different admins do this but none have been banned, 2 warnings should be a ban, right?

 

Solution to this would be like the one in Problem One, hand out warnings only to intentional or rule ignorant acts instead of accidental acts. I have no doubt that the admins rdmed or whatever on accident, hell, even Never Done does it too (this is not an attack on never done or a burn, it is just an example to show how common this is), I have no problem with this but if an admin messes up, just like me, they should be punished just like me, orrr, we can both just get no warning and just the slays. 

 

 

 

I am so sorry for the long post but I wanted to make sure that my points were concrete and there are no holes in them. Pig owner told me to make my posts easier to read and I feel that this is much easier to read and much prettier than my last post. Just like my last post, please feel free to agree in the comments or rebuttal my points, It helps the community and is all in the interest of making the defy servers better. It even has colors!

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I agree with all of this, and especially agree with checking your warnings. Why wouldn't I just be able to check my warnings myself? Why do they last for so long? Does the warning really matter for people who know the rules but may have made an accident? Why don't you give warnings for people who know the rules and are careless, or who don't know the rules and they didn't care to read the rules? You are just pressured to remember all these warnings you may have, but what if you forget? Then you will just be on the road to a permanent ban. I think the warnings should be way shorter if the current system for doing things is to remain the same(1 - 2w), or even with Donnies idea for the system, which is giving careless people warnings, should be shorter(1 - 2mo).

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A couple of things I think you seem to not understand about the system

1. Warns are permanent. They never expire. This is due to the fact that people should, in my personal opinion and I believe it is extended through much of the staff team, only need one warning for a certain rule. Warns are there in order to make sure that you review a rule and understand it for the future

2. It seems that you think rdm receives a warning (due to the shotgun scenario) , which it does not.

3. Admins do not warn themselves due to us being apart of a different standard, one which is much more strict. We’re on a three strike system already which can lead to CWB’s. Also, if an admin is banned that could mean not being there to help with a loaded lobby or other issues. Staff are to know the rules and as I said above warns are only there to refresh the rules into people’s heads. I personally make up for the less severe punishment by giving credits to who I might negatively effect with my mistakes.


Overall, no one is perfect. We all make our mistakes, but we can only truly better ourselves by being held accountable and this system ensures the utmost accountability of every player. It’s not a bad system, it’s just one the community has yet to adapt to.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Nydekore said:

A couple of things I think you seem to not understand about the system

1. Warns are permanent. They never expire. This is due to the fact that people should, in my personal opinion and I believe it is extended through much of the staff team, only need one warning for a certain rule. Warns are there in order to make sure that you review a rule and understand it for the future

2. It seems that you think rdm receives a warning (due to the shotgun scenario) , which it does not.

3. Admins do not warn themselves due to us being apart of a different standard, one which is much more strict. We’re on a three strike system already which can lead to CWB’s. Also, if an admin is banned that could mean not being there to help with a loaded lobby or other issues. Staff are to know the rules and as I said above warns are only there to refresh the rules into people’s heads. I personally make up for the less severe punishment by giving credits to who I might negatively effect with my mistakes.


Overall, no one is perfect. We all make our mistakes, but we can only truly better ourselves by being held accountable and this system ensures the utmost accountability of every player. It’s not a bad system, it’s just one the community has yet to adapt to.

But usually to get a strike, you have to have like multiple rule breaks to get 1 strike. I don't think you will get a strike for just saying something 3 times? false kos? Your would just get a warning that says, "hey, don't do that again." If you were just a regular member, then you would get a warning and a punishment, and the second is a ban, and the warning never goes away. So if you do the same thing like 5 months later, the warning is still there, and you get banned without warning. So I would feel like its not as strict as for members(but of course, I wouldn't really know). I think its a horrible system and you don't get second chances, once you do 1 thing wrong, it sticks with you through out your whole time here.

Edited by ItzGray

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48 minutes ago, Nydekore said:

 

2. It seems that you think rdm receives a warning (due to the shotgun scenario) , which it does not.

I just learned this now but is that not another problem with it? Rdm is far worse that t baiting or false Kos but a warning point is ten fold worse than 2 rounds slays because those last 6 minutes whilst the minimum ban lasts 3 days. I would much rather take in game punishment than a warning.  An rdm changes a players experience a lot more than 2 accidental t baits but in my case, the 2 accidental t baits will receive infinitely more punishment than the rdm.

 

"Warns are there in order to make sure that you review a rule and understand it for the future" 

i would like to disagree because if I know the rule and it is an accident, a warm is not helping me learn the rule or anything, it is just punishing me for breaking it. I know the rules, this is not helping he with anything. Back to my point where warnings should only be given for intentional rule breaking. Defy used to be chill but now it is very strict. Ruining what they sought to protect by targeting intentional rule breakers and hitting everyone.

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15 minutes ago, donnie8 said:

Defy used to be chill but now it is very strict. Ruining what they sought to protect by targeting intentional rule breakers and hitting everyone.

It was nice getting on and playing without worrying that one accidental rule break can lead to a permanent mark and eventually lead to a permanent ban. Now you have to worry about everything you do, because once you make one mistake, it's just there forever. It was fun playing back when I joined, now I have to worry about what I do, because if I do something wrong, it's just another ban.

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Just saying I completely agree.

 

Warning system is fair to new players that unknowingly break the rules. It gives them a chance to learn, but extremely unforgiving from then on.

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8 hours ago, donnie8 said:

I just learned this now but is that not another problem with it? Rdm is far worse that t baiting or false Kos but a warning point is ten fold worse than 2 rounds slays because those last 6 minutes whilst the minimum ban lasts 3 days. I would much rather take in game punishment than a warning.  An rdm changes a players experience a lot more than 2 accidental t baits but in my case, the 2 accidental t baits will receive infinitely more punishment than the rdm.

Nah. False KOS and T baiting fall under the karma manipulation category, which is worse than just rdming (which is not the same as mass rdming or revenge rdming.) Flat out rdm tends to come from people who don't know how to play ttt that well and people who don't know the rules. T baiting and False KOS can affect other people's karma.

 

All in all though, I remember a year ago when I first joined and the rules were much more lax and that made it so that more people were able to break the rules. What I think mark should do is change the punishment based on your role, such as non members, Junior member, Senior member, etc.. This would be very different from the system that is put in place today, but I feel this could be the trust factor. I'm not saying there should be a BIG difference but as of now we are all trusted the same as someone who hasn't even read the rules. There needs to be a system.

 

Let me get into this with a little more clarity.

You need to not have any warnings or bans in the past 3 months to be allowed to apply for admin. This should be the same for membership roles if you want to add trust factor to it (doesn't have to be the same length). Does this mean that Senior, Veteran, and Old School are allowed to get away with breaking the rules? No, but the punishments should definitely be reduced. This would give more people a drive to work hard and move up the ranks. There is a limit to how many admins there can be so I think most are discouraged and don't care too much to follow the rules for that reason, but there are infinite role upgrade opportunities. I believe this could be the perfect way to setup a trust system.

 

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I agree that there should be some reform in the punishments.  Although most offenders are people who consistently break the rules and that's why these punishments were put in place, I still think it's way to easy for someone to make a mistake once, learn from their mistake, and make the same mistake again by accident a month or more down the road and get punished for it.  Although the punishments we have here work, I just think it's still just a little too strict and that at the very least warnings should have an expiration date, like maybe 2 months.

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6 hours ago, PigOwner said:

False KOS and T baiting fall under the karma manipulation category

 

False KOS and T Bait both have their own warning as they both are defined in separate rules. (False KOS is #1, T Bait is #2).

 

17 hours ago, donnie8 said:

its rules and conditions are not clearly laid out for the Defy members and players to see

 

They are. This is one of the few points that I disagree with.

 

If it is the first time you receive a punishment since this change you will be punished according to number 1. under the punishment(s) for that rule. However if you have already received 1. then you will be punished according to 2. of the Punishment(s) of that rule.

 

17 hours ago, donnie8 said:

The fourth Problem is "who should receive warnings?". This is about whether or not admins should receive warnings. I have witnessed a couple of admins accidentally breaking rules and slaying themselves but not warning themselves. It is like a police officer paying a fine but not doing the time. (little rhyme there). This is annoying because an admin could accidentally rdm and slay them selves but I get warned for something as petty as accidentally t baiting which brings me half way to a ban, in my case, a perma ban. I have seen several (at least 3) different admins do this but none have been banned, 2 warnings should be a ban, right?

 

I completely agree. I found it extremely confusing how we enforce rules and ban players for the exact same stuff that we may do every now and then. While obviously it's much less pronounced, often, or usually harmful, we do break rules every now and then. I know nearly every admin has false kosed at some point while they are on.

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sorry for the confusion @MSWS. When I said they fall under the karma manipulation category, I didn’t mean it literally. I meant it in that you are changing someone else’s karma(putting them in danger of karma ban) by breaking those rules as apposed to making someone die prematurely(rdm).

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Warning points are definitely deserved for something like what I did, which is purposely use a glitch in the map. Permanent warning here I can still understand, but it is a problem when two accidents lead to someone getting banned. If someone makes the mistake often, then it shouldn't go unpunished as they need to get themselves together and start paying attention. But when it happens like a month later and they get banned due to a warning, it's an issue as people are prone to accidents.

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2 hours ago, Holikwakkemoli said:

Warning points are definitely deserved for something like what I did, which is purposely use a glitch in the map. Permanent warning here I can still understand, but it is a problem when two accidents lead to someone getting banned. If someone makes the mistake often, then it shouldn't go unpunished as they need to get themselves together and start paying attention. But when it happens like a month later and they get banned due to a warning, it's an issue as people are prone to accidents.

This is why I will probably not be joining the defy jailbreak again.

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